Pastor's Circle - Jerry Horner

Jerry Horner has been a university professor and administrator since 1962. He joined the Pastor's Circle from Pretoria, South Africa, along with businessman Tony Sebastiao. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of the interview.

(For clarity, Dr. Horner's remarks are italicized, while Mr. Sebastiao's are in regular type.)

How can the Church help overcome corruption in the government?

What comes to my mind is 2 Chronicles 7:14. "If my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land."

That's what the church needs to start emphasizing more and more.

There are some very good people in government. I believe the Lord will give victory to us.

How are people best reached in South Africa??

Obviously through the Church, but corruption has taken hold here. When you speak about freedom, people think that means pulling yourself up and gaining for yourself.

Even with my Christian brothers, they still have an element of wanting to grab, wanting to take.

There is a time of healing to take place. It's a time we have to come with the love and compassion of Jesus Christ, preaching the message that we are one.

That's the message of the Holy Spirit in our lives. When we meet someone who has accepted Christ, we are meeting a brother or sister.

Tony is a white businessman who for many many years has been in brotherly connection with black ministers. You see the dividends that it has brought.

When we realize that we are one in the Lord Jesus Christ, we welcome one another, love one another, and speak the Gospel.

What is the key to overcoming corruption?

We have to spread the Gospel. The Bible says we have to spread the kingdom. We need to spread the Gospel and preach to people that that is the only way.

Pastor's Circle - Steve Blakemore

Steve Blakemore is the Professor of Philosophy at Wesley Biblical Seminary in Jackson, Mississippi, and the pastor of Wesley Chapel He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

Talk to us about this upcoming "Personhoood Amendment."

It's always interesting to me when people want to talk about abortion, that they make it a matter of "rights." The rights of the woman over her body versus the rights of the unborn child.

People lose perspective on this one question. Exactly what is this "entity" within the mother's womb? The Personhood Amendment makes people grapple with the fact that the life within the mother is indeed a human life.

I think that's what the Amendment drives forth.

Do we need to reconsider the way we look at birth control?

I think there's no doubt about that. One of the things this discussion does is make people uncomfortable, because it forces us to move beyond "sound bite" discussions.

We have to get into deep discussions about the very nature of human life.

I remember in 2008 Rick Warren asked both Obama and McCain when life began. President Obama said it was above his pay grade.

It's certainly not above his pay grade to acknowledge the humanity of the life in the mother's womb.

When it comes to things like birth control, we have to think about how much we allow our convenience to determine our actions.

How do we persuade others using a Christian worldview?

First of all, for us to think about persuading, we have to teach Christians how to think as Christians.

People would be amazed how much other values systems influence what they think, and then they just baptize those systems in the Christian worldview. What does the Bible say? What does the Christian faith tell us?

If we go in fully informed, and able to think as Christians, but go in asking people with big hearts even towards those who are wrong, there should be compassion in our hearts toward them.

What are we trying to do, win arguments or win people?

So humility is an important part of it?

Every Christian can inform themselves not just about the issues, but about the Christian values that we have to embrace.

Not just personhood, but about poverty, how free market should be thought of in a Christian worldview, how we should view democracy.

We should be a people who are just as intense about winning the person's soul and mind as we are about the issues.

Pastor's Circle - Jim Garlow

Dr. Jim Garlow pastors at Skyline Church in San Diego, CA. He also serves as the chairman of Renewing American Leadership, and is the author of a number of books. He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss the implications of the book of Acts on our lives. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

You're doing a sermon series on Acts. How is it going?

It's going great. One of the most exciting books of the bible.

We've been on it for eight weeks, and we've gotten to verse five so far.

What are the key points of Acts?

I'm just taking each phrase at a time. For instance, Theophilus means God-Lover. What does it mean to be a God-lover?

Jesus spent his last days on earth talking about the kingdom of God. What can we learn about the kingdom of God?

What does it mean to be baptized with water? What does it mean to be baptized with the Spirit?

"Is this the time for the kingdom of Israel to rise?" Well, what does the kingdom of Israel have to tell us today?

Acts 1:8 talks about being God's witnesses. What does that mean for us?

The word witness actually comes from a derivative of martyr. In other words, you're willing to be so bold to the point of death.

We tend to think witness means talking. It's not just that. It means you're going to be bold.

We're all called after the Holy Spirit comes upon us to be bold at any cost. It doesn't mean to be belligerent or a Bible-thumper, but to be as bold as Peter and John in front of the Sanhedrin.

What can happen in the local church if we are those witnesses?

It begins to transform that local church. And also, you can expect persecution. And the Gospel will spread.

It happens consistently in the book of Acts. All of the above will occur.

Can the American church handle that kind of pushback?

That is a profound question right there. I would be very concerned. Some are ready and some are not. There is a real separation coming.

I pray that every Christian comes to the point where they fear God more than they fear the world. When that happens, they truly become a witness.

Can there be that kind of courage without the Holy Spirit?

I can't imagine how there would be. It's pretty hard to be like Jesus if you don't have the Holy Spirit.

The disciples were pretty cowardly until they received the Holy Spirit. When that happened to them, that was when they became witnesses.

How do you open yourself up to the Spirit??

Precisely the same way one opens oneself to receive Christ.

When we come to Christ, it's not that God could not give us His Spirit all at once.

It's that we don't have as humans the comprehension of a commitment until we're actually in it.

Pastor's Circle - Tullian Tchividijan

Tullian Tchividjian, grandson of Billy Graham, is the senior pastor of Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church and a visiting professor of theology at Reformed Theological Seminary.He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss his latest book, Jesus + Nothing = Everything. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

What inspired this book?

2009 ended up being the most painful year of my life. In retrospect, because of that, it was also the best year of my life becausee of the things that God taught me.

2009 was the year that the church I had planted in Fort Lauderdale merged with Coral Ridge Presbyterian Church. It was a long process to get to that point. After a long process of evaluating and investigating that possibility, we believed that God wanted to do it.  

It was a remarkable celebration for about 10 minutes. And then all of the fireworks we anticipated started going off. We knew it was going to be tough, because merging churches is never easy.

I felt like the father of a blended family. It was really, really tough. For the most part everyone was on board and excited, but there was a small, very vocal group that opposed us at every turn. There were articles in the paper, anonymous letters, anonymous blogs. It was a full-blown attack on me and the rest of the leadership. 

But it was at that time that God rescued me from me. I found myself very frustrated and angry and honest with God. I felt like the older brother in the story of the prodigal son, saying I've done everything You asked me to do, and I don't get a party?

But God basically told me straight from the book of Colossians that it wasn't my old life I wanted back, it was my old idols, and He loved me too much to give them to me. That's when God helped me discover the now-power of the Gospel by showing me that all of the approval and validation that I was looking for in people was already mine in Jesus.

It changed me forever. I'm a different man because of it. It was incredibly painful, but also extremely liberating

How do we "add to the Gospel"?

There's a variety of ways that we do that.The more subtle ones are the more dangerous.

Most of us tend to say that we believe with our minds that Jesus + Nothing = Everything, but in reality, it's Jesus + something else. Jesus + the safety of my children. Jesus + a good marriage.

According to the Bible, an idol is not necessarily a bad thing. It can be a good thing that we start worshiping. The moment that my kids or my marriage defines me more than Jesus, I've turned my wife or children into idols.

What I have to ask is what is the one thing that if God were to take away, I would stop wanting to live? For me, I hit that low point in 2009. It was Jesus + people liking me that made me feel good.

Where does the Holy Spirit come in?

Of course, the Holy Spirit is the third person of the Godhead, fully God just as much as Jesus. Jesus said very clearly that the Spirit would come to testify about him.

There is no conflict in that it is the Holy Spirit who overcomes our unbelieving hearts that Jesus + Nothing = Everything.

That is the sin underneath every sin: the sin of unbelief.

Pastor's Circle - Sam Shaw

Sam Shaw is the lead pastor of The Orchard Fellowship, located in Memphis, TN. He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss his sermon yesterday, on 1 Peter 3:1 - 7. Here are the "CliffsNotes" of his segment.

 Wives, in the same way submit yourselves to your own husbands so that, if any of them do not believe the word, they may be won over without words by the behavior of their wives, when they see the purity and reverence of your lives. Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as elaborate hairstyles and the wearing of gold jewelry or fine clothes. Rather, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to adorn themselves. They submitted themselves to their own husbands, like Sarah, who obeyed Abraham and called him her lord. You are her daughters if you do what is right and do not give way to fear. 

Husbands, in the same way be considerate as you live with your wives, and treat them with respect as the weaker partner and as heirs with you of the gracious gift of life, so that nothing will hinder your prayers.

Does this method of evangelism work for wives?

Sometimes. And that text says they may be one. There is no guarantee, but there is the possibility.

The passage talks about Sarah, whose hope was in God. Because of that, and the peace in her spirit, she was able to follow her husband.

The root system that fed the action of submission was hope in God.

It sounds strange. And as I read this text, I could feel the filters going up.

In the Trinity, Jesus submits to the Father. There's tremendous power in submission. There's a transforming power in peaceful submission.

If you're a follower of Christ, and a husband, you're called to follow the example of Christ in laying down his life.You're going to feel the compulsion to die to what you want.

If you're a wife, you want to follow the example of Christ in submitting to the Father.

What is all this about adornment?

He's talking about the kind of spirit and attitude that you have. Your hope is not in anything but God.

This thing about adornment, he's not saying don't take care of your appearance. He's saying it's a matter of focus. Am I going to focus on what other people see? Or are am I going to focus on what God sees?

Is this about mutual submission?

I think the way it works out certainly is. Submission for the wife is an attitude of helping the husband to be what he needs to be.

Both husband and wife in the Scriptures are meant to lift up and honor each other.

Pastor's Circle: Frazee on "The heart of the story..."

Randy Frazee is the senior minister of Oak Hills Church in San Antonio, TX. He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss his newest book, The Heart of the Story. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

Tell us about your book.

I think that one of the biggest drives for me to write this book is that we've discovered that biblical illiteracy is a growing epidemic among Christians. As we've gone into the 21st century, research shows that Christians are more illiterate about their faith than agnostics or atheists.

Christians often see the Bible as a set of disconnected stories. This book tries to connect the dots, so everything is connected in one overarching love story of God.

Tell us about that "overarching" story.

There's two "stories" going on with the Bible, the upper story and the lower story.

For instance, in the story of Joseph, you may get a great lesson on forgiveness, or resisting temptation. But God uses Joseph in the upper story, to save his family from famine and continue to live the plan for God's people.

This is one of the greatest applications. We are characters in God's unfolding upper story. If we align our life to that upper story, everything will come out for good.

What is the "heart of the story"?

I would say that the heart of the story is what you see in Genesis 1 and 2. God coming down and doing life in community with Adam and Eve. If you fast-forward to the end of Revelation, you again see the Tree of Life, and God coming down to live among us.

God's upper story plan is going to happen. The only question is whether we will participate with blessing or without it.

A lot of the time, the lower story gives you practical advice for the day, while the upper story gives you the long view of God's vision for us.

 You can learn more about Randy Frazee and The Heart of the Story on his website.

Pastor's Circle - Bill Ury

Dr. Bill Ury is Professor of Systematic Theology at Wesley Biblical Seminary and hosts the Hour of Holiness on AFR on Sunday mornings. He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss Ephesians 2:8 - 10. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God - not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

How strategic is this verse in Christian history?

I think apart from maybe a couple verses in Romans, it has been the most pivotal. Hundreds or more theologians have made this verse the foundation of our faith.

We are saved only by faith, not by going to Church, not by sacraments, but by faith alone. This is what distinguishes Christianity from all the other religions.

I've been preaching for over 35 years, and the more I preach on grace, the more I realize how little I understand. Grace takes me out of the picture almost completely.

I think that's what bothers Americans. This takes all the focus of me. It's a mystery, but it's a crucial thing for all of us.

Do we play a role?

We do. And that role is never outside of the grace of God.

His grace provides, His grace illuminates, His grace reveals. His grace enables us to receive His grace.

This is not some game for God, this is a personal relationship. That is the center of Christianity.

Many people tend to embrace a "saving" rather than a transforming faith.

That's a total misreading of Ephesians 2. God has, from eternity, offered himself to anyone who believed.

But any theology that emphasizes just one aspect of salvation is off-track. If you believe you're saved for all eternity, you still have to deal with where you are with God this hour.

We can lie to ourselves, but we're rejecting his convicting grace.

What about verse 10? Paul says that works don't count, and then he comes back and says they do?

One thing's for sure, Paul's not confused, and he's not trying to confuse us.

That's the mystery of it. We get all of God, all of Jesus, and He wants all of us.

His Work is with a capital W, my work is with a small w, but they both are needed.

We realize that works don't save us, but they are the only adequate response to what Jesus has done for us.

Pastor's Circle - Chuck Huckaby

Chuck Huckaby, pastor of St. Andrew's Church in Lawrenceburg, TN, joined the Pastor's Circle to talk about the Ten Commandments and how they apply to our lives. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

 

We talk about the Ten Commandments a lot, but I wonder how many of us actually know them.

I had a situation happen to me the other day when I was reviewing my catechism and I realized that I didn't know them, or integrate them into life, as well as I would like.   

We often complain when the Ten Commandments are removed from a public setting, yet we often don't even know and live them as Christians.  

What's your perspective on Jesus' summation of the Ten Commandments: Love God, love your neighbor?

In a sense the Ten Commandments are the summary of all the Mosaic law given in the OT, but then Jesus further summarizes the law in the NT. 

 I don't think we even hear people talking about the two commandments of Jesus, let alone really understanding or remembering the Ten Commandments.  I think that seeing the Ten as the two tables of the law, our relationship with God and our relationship with other people, is an acceptable way of looking at them.   

Some people even believe that the commandment to love your parents is the beginning point of loving God rightly.  

Several traditions even have different ways to number them though.  I like to start with the prescript to the Ten Commandments, "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery." 

When you see that God's commands are preceded  by what He has already done for us - it reminds us that the obligation to obey is not something that we earn, but is based upon the grace of God.  

What should be the family's approach to the Ten Commandments?

When the children are as young as possible we needed be teaching these kids things like the Ten Commandments and the Lord's Prayer. It is a priceless experience to be able to instill a biblical way of thinking when they are very young.  The Ten Commandments are the basis for all Christian ethics

Do you have any tips on how a family can memorize together?

Most basically I just think repetition is the key.  Just going over it time and time again.  Try to make it fun.  Emphasize that we are disciples together.  We all need to learn these things.   

You can't ignore these things when your kids are 3 and expect them to know and do these commandments when they are 21.  Another positive is that this type of memorization helps us to learn how to pray.

Pastor's Circle - Jeffrey Klick

Jeffrey Klick is the Senior Pastor of Hope Family Fellowship. He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss Psalms 20. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his segment.

What are your ruminations on this verse?

I look at this very first verse, and there's a couple of presuppositions there that we can run right by. In the very first verse, there's two suppositions. One, there is a Lord, and two, we will have trouble.

We tend to get all bent out of shape when troubles come, but they're anticipated. Jesus said we will have troubles, we will have trials, we will have pain.. There will be problems in each of our lives, so who are we clinging to?

Does the "battle" language play a part here?

Absolutely. If we really are in warfare, then it's not going to be pleasant. Sometimes we act as if we're having a picnic in the middle of the war.

As a pastor, I see people hurting in a variety of ways, from marriages breaking up to children going astray. It's important that we see a bigger picture, which is why I like the second half of this verse..

It's also interesting that of all the names God could have chosen to be put with, he used Jacob. Jacob wasn't exactly the greatest guy.

But if you let God redeem you, you can be useful.

What does it mean to be "set securely on high"?

If you follow through the rest of the Psalm, there is a wonderful word picture about running to the Lord.

The whole thing about running to the Lord is that the Lord is a rock and a fortress.

You don't need a fortress when there are no arrows flying at you. The storms of life are going to hit; we need something to stand on.

I think it's a picture of being safe even in the middle of the storm.

What are the implications of verse 7 as it relates to prosperity?

I think the Scripture is very clear on that. Most of us intensify our prayer life when we're in trouble.

When we're comfortable, it's very easy to drift and not keep our eyes on the Lord.

People can put their trust in power and prosperity, our in our case, America, but we have to remember to put our trust in God.

Pastor's Circle - Todd Hudnall

Todd Hudnall is the pastor of Radiant Church in Colorado Springs, CO. He joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss the "insignificant" ministry that God often uses. Here are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

Have you noticed across your career that seeming "insignificance" can be very significant?

Certainly things that seem like they're not very important at the time can turn into something quite fabulous.

Like you said, the ultimate example is the baby born in Bethlehem.

Can we make a difference?

I certainly believe that we can, or we wouldn't be doing what we're doing.

Throughout Scripture, something that strikes me is the juxtaposition, that again and again God tends to upend human ideas and concepts about what is important.

What a way [for Jesus] to start a movement that would transform the world, with these 12 peasants from Galilee.

What are the spiritual dynamics of these types of ministry?

As I go through the Bible, I can't help remembering the story of Gideon. He was gathering an army, but God kept saying, "You've got too many."

It ended up just being a very small number of men going up this huge army, and God got all the glory.

Just like in church, with the things we enjoy like technology. If you see that as what the church is about, you're going to keep your eyes on those things.

Does a small thing like a prayer ministry make a difference?

It makes all the difference. I've done ministry when you didn't have any prayer support, and I've done it when you've had a movement of prayer.

It's a difference you can't imagine. It's the thing that drives the ministry of what God's doing.

What are other small things that make a difference?

I would say that again, getting back to the insignificant things, it's just caring about people where you're at.

 And I see this all the time, where someone invited someone, or did some active kindness toward someone, or shared their faith when they felt a little uncomfortable. And you hear the stories down the road, when that made a huge impact kingdom-wide.

The end results are quite extraordinary.

"I want to see one of the great revivals...but the choice is in front of us."

Dan Boone, president of Trevecca Nazarene University, joined the Pastor's Circle to discuss God's judgment on Israel, and how that correlates to America today. Here are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

Babylon was God's "smackdown" on Israel. Is there a smackdown in store for America?

I actually think that the time that the people of God are in exile is the most likely place in scripture for us to address the American situation right now.

Sometimes God's judgment on his people is almost viewed as the end of the line. But I feel like it's the beginning. When God moves to save us, the beginning of that move is God saying, "This is how I feel about what your doing. I'm going to wake you up."

Even most of the prophetic messages have this deep sense of God's movement to restore his people.

Has America earned the right to be "exiled"?

I think we have. When I look at the top reasons the Israelites ended up in Babylon, it was wicked kings, their trust in "horses and chariots" instead of the power of God, their adaptation to the culture around them, their worship of false gods, and their lack of social justice.

I think you can find parallels in American culture for each of those.

Tell me about our idols.

I'm a lover of football. But I've watched sports become idolatry in America. It's more than being a fan of a team, but its getting depressed if they lose, or it's waiting all week long for the game. The list of idols in our lives has become very long.

Our own appearance has become an idol. I watch all these different kinds of pockets, and we pour our money into them, we devote our time to them, and the words out of our mouths become witness to these idols rather than to the God who gives us life.

And I think that grieves our God. God's very purpose even in getting us out of exile is that we might bear witness to the world.

Could it happen that God gives America up?

It could. I'm one of those whose belief in the way that history rolls forward is not that God preordains what will happen, but that he lays before us a choice. I believe today God is standing before us saying, "Will you walk with me? Will you follow my holy ways?"

Even in Europe, Christianity was embedded in every church and cathedral and song, and yet most Europeans are very post-Christian today.

I want to see one of the great revivals. And I think God longs to meet with His people in those ways. But the choice is in front of us.

Pastor's Circle - Rurel Ausley

 Rev. Rurel Ausley, Lead Pastor of Niceville United Methodist Church, joined the Pastor's Circle to talk about what the "missional" church looks like. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

There is a popular word flying around the church world: missional. What is that about?

That is one of the big buzz words right now.  As a Wesleyan this is part and parcel to who I am.   

I believe that John Wesley tried to embody the methods of Jesus of taking the gospel to people where they are at.  We are trying to take the message of the church outside our walls.

Talk about the difference between a maintenance outlook and a missional outlook. What about taking care the people in the church?

I don't think of this as an either/or, but rather a both/and.  The great commission teaches us that we should do both.  Spreading the gospel, but also discipling and growing those who are in our churches.   

If we are the sent ones we have to be out in the community first.  I think of our Sunday gatherings as "huddle time" like in football; we get together and then break out and get in the game.

Why is this vital?

I think the reason most churches don't exist missionally is the tendency is to maintain because we focus on ourselves.

What are some of the ways your church is missional?

Some of our small groups tried to make food for the homeless, but then no homeless people showed up.  They went out trying to find someone to give the food to.   

After awhile of doing it this way it occurred to them that maybe people weren't going to come to them, so they just went to planning on taking food to the homeless, those that need it.   

It has grown from a few people to over 1000 meals each Saturday.  But we realized we had to not just be willing to make the food, but also head out into the community to find those in need. 

 Now we see this ministry even extending to many of the children of these families being very involved with our church's attendance.

Can you give some examples of how other churches can get started in this type of missional ministry?

The other type of ministries you might do in a particular church are really dependent on the church's size.  Many small churches need to understand what they can handle and not try to focus on too many things at once.   

The larger church has more possibilities.  We have been able to start a clothing ministry and a benevolent ministry that helps those who can't pay their bills. This opens up possibilities for counseling and sharing Christ.

How does this impact your congregation?

It has been huge for us.  Some of our older members have found what they feel like they were meant to do, and we see some of these people becoming spiritual giants among us.  

Pastor's Circle - Bert Harper

Bert Harper, chairman on the board of American Family Association, joined The Matt Friedeman Show today to talk about pastors and their families. Below are the "CliffsNotes" of his interview.

Tell us about your new position at AFA.

The position is Director of Family Life and Pastoral Ministries. AFA has always been a great ministry warning people about what the family is coming up against.

They felt like it was time for us to get in this fight of equipping families. My wife and I will be going and sharing in conferences about the family, and at the same time encouraging pastors.

In what ways are you going to do that?

If you're not right at home, being in the fight is not going to do any good. In fact, the devil will try even harder to take you down. Jan and I are going to be really encouraging pastors to be involved at home.

We feel like pastor's kids are open game. And Satan is doing everything he can to get pastors off their calling.

I think the reason so many pastors take the low road is because they're a target.

So you think that Satan targets the pastoral family?

I really do. I realize more and more, if he can get me off of my message, if he can get me more concerned about what all is going on in my life, I will be less focused on Christ.

People look up to their pastor. But I want to tell you, he is a target for Satan. And Satan does everything he can to mess up his family.

What tips do you have for parents?

Two things come to my mind. I was raised on a farm by a dad who raised mostly by example. I was around him all the time. I'd see my dad read the scriptures, and I caught it. 

So I went into fatherhood thinking that was the way to do it. But you have to do it both in a casual way and a conscious way. If we don't, we are not fulfilling God's purpose in our life.

The next thing is activities. Activities are killing us. When I was busy trying to get my kids to all their events, we didn't have time for the things we needed to be doing. Activities are killing the family.

Evangelism/Discipleship Smackdown, i

The Problem
Edward Gibbon:  The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire...Gibbon's conclusions for the downfall of the Empire:

1)  The rapid increase of divorce; the undermining of the dignity and sanctity of the home, which is the basis of human society.

2) High and higher taxes and the spending of public monies for free bread and circuses for the populace.

3) The mad craze for pleasure; sports becoming every year more exciting and more brutal.

4)  The building of gigantic armaments when the real enemy is within, the decadence of the people.

5)  The decay of religion - faith fading into mere form, losing touch with life and becoming impotent to warn and guide the people. 

and...

Arnold Toynbee's A Study of History...studied the life-span of twenty-one civilizations...those that failed to survive went through a cycle:

Slavery... faith in the divine... courage... emancipation and independence... prosperity... selfishness... apathy... dependence on the welfare state...slavery. 

So...Let the Church, Be the Church

"This is the original design of the church of Christ. It is a body of men compacted together in order, first, to save each his own soul, then to assist each other in working out their salvation, and afterwards, as far as in them lies, to save all men from present and future misery, to overturn the kingdom of Satan, and set up the kingdom of Christ. And this ought to be the continued care and endeavour of every member of his church. Otherwise he is not worthy to be called a member thereof, as he is not a living member of Christ."  (John Wesley, “The Reformation of Manners,” The Bicentennial Edition of the Works of John Wesley, (34 vols., Nashville: Abingdon Press, 1985), 2:302.)

A Price to Be Paid for This Nation...and any Nation

"China is not to be won for Christ by quiet, ease-loving men and women … The stamp of men and women we need is such as will put Jesus, China, [and] souls first and foremost in everything and at every time—even life itself must be secondary."  ("Hudson Taylor's Spiritual Secret"...here is a great Christian History piece on him.)

Beware

If you make disciples by sitting around and talking, don't be surprised if your disciples sit around and talk. 

Jesus called His disciples to Himself, and then moved.  He taught, and preached, but His instruction was in the context of movement to the least and lost, the untouchables of His culture.  If we make our disciples by doing anything less, then what we will get is disappointing disciples, families, small groups, churches.  Get moving.  Much is at stake.  (MF)

Charles Wesley's Hymn:  Lovers of Pleasure

‘Lovers of pleasure more than God,
For you He suffered pain;
Swearers, for you He spilt his blood;
And shall He bleed in vain?

Misers, for you his life He paid,
Your basest crime He bore:
Drunkards, your sins on Him were laid,
That you might sin no more.

The God of love, to earth He came,
That you might come to heaven;
Believe, believe in Jesus’ Name,
And all your sin’s forgiven.

Believe in Him that died for thee,
And, sure as He hath died,
Thy debt is paid, Thy soul is free,
And thou art justified.’

Evangelism/Discipleship Smackdown, ii

E. Stanley Jones

"I believe that the discovery of the facts, when they are facts and not half-truths, is leading in one direction and in only one direction - in the direction of Christ.  Let the scientist, therefore, begin with the facts, and let him go far enough with those facts, and he will come out at the fact of Christ.  He may not get to Christ; he may stop short; but at least his facts will be point in the direction of Christ as their fulfillment."  (Christ of the American Road, 159)

Something old

In 1675 Phillip Jacob Spener published a booklet that criticized the regular church.  Titled Pia Desideria (Heart Longings) it contained the following for overcoming the weaknesses in the church.  He prescribed the following:

1)  The more general circulation of the Scriptures, with meetings in private for a thorough study of their meaning.

2)  The improvement and faithful exercise of the pastoral office; the laity to cooperate with the pastors in edifying one another, especially by means of family religion and prayer. 

3)  The serious truth that to know is not enough in religion; practical experience must be added. 

4)  Correct relations with errorists and unbelievers; controversy in the true spirit of love, with a wish not simply to convince, but to benefit, the one opposing. 

5)  Some way of studying theology which will make students as earnest in living Christian lives as in studying their books. 

6)  Some way of preaching, which will present as the chief truth that Christianity signifies a new man, the essence of his life being faith, and its activity consisting in bringing forth good fruits.    

Something new

Lifeway:  'Unchurched adults interested in finding a congregation aren’t nearly as likely to visit one in person as a church member who is shopping for a new congregation. That means effective evangelism must begin outside the sanctuary in relationships between Christians and unbelievers, according to research from several recent studies from LifeWay Research...

"The location of our evangelism needs to shift if we want to reach the unchurched and not just move sheep around," said Ed Stetzer, director of LifeWay Research. "At LifeWay Research we want to encourage churches to grow through conversion. To do that, they must not rely only of the unchurched visiting our churches. Church switchers are primarily the ones who visit churches. The unchurched stay home...

"So, if you build your outreach on recruiting and reaching church visitors you will often build a church on church switchers," he said.

Stetzer continued, "For several decades we have focused on come and see, invest and invite, bring your friends to church by attracting them with a great program. We call that attractional ministry. Now we are facing the reality that fewer unchurched people are willing to visit a Christian church.

"This will compel us to embrace a go and tell – or incarnational – approach," he said.

"Should we invite our friends to church? Sure. But should we be, do, and tell the Gospel to people in culture? You bet. It is not only biblical, but it is even more essential today as our culture grows increasingly resistant to the church."  More here.

Stop it with the numbers?

The late Richard John Neuhaus in First Things seems to think so:

A priest on Long Island tells me that, when he was newly ordained, he had the chance to visit with the legendary Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen, who was famed for, among other things, winning many converts to the Catholic Church. Sheen was in the hospital and, as it turned out, on his deathbed. “Archbishop Sheen,” my friend said, “I have come for your counsel. I want to be a convert-making priest like you. I’ve already won fifteen people to the faith. What is your advice?” Sheen painfully pushed himself up on his elbows from his reclining position and looked my friend in the eye. “The first thing to do,” he said, “is to stop counting.”

Another Perspective on Counting...

"It took 18 centuries for dedicated believers to grow from 0% of the world's population to 2.5% in 1900, only 70 years to grow from 2.5% to 5% in 1970, and just the last 30 years to grow from 5% to 11.2% of the world population. Now for the first time in history there is one believer for every nine people worldwide who aren't believers...we're talking about Bible-reading, Bible-believing stream of Christianity." (Ralph D. Winter and Bruce A. Koch/Perspectives)

Why we don't make disciples

1. Our world view is all wrong. "Be holy as I am holy" is not a core conviction.

2. We prefer the things that are "more exciting" - like worship, harvesting tithes, building buildings, getting on the latest trendy movement of evangelicalism.

3. Not intentional enough. We think Sunday school or the regular programming dynamic of the local church will do the trick to transform lives.

4. We read the gospels for many reasons but not to find the methodology of Jesus for changing the world.

5. Hard to brag about discipleship in the statistics manual of district conference.

6. It is hard work.

7. We were not discipled therefore we don't have a clue what And meant by discipleship or how to do it.

8. American society is a time stealer, and discipleship, alas, takes time.

9.  In Acts, they made disciples.  The secret was the infilling of the Spirit.  Do we take the third person of the Trinity serious anymore?


Luther

"Beware!  God will not ask you at your death and at the Last  Day how much you have left in your will, whether you have given so and so much to churches...he will say to you, 'I was hungry, and you gave me no food; I was naked, and you did not clothe me' (Matt. 25:42-43).  Take these words to heart!  The important thing is whether you have given to your neighbor and treated him well."  (Luther's Works  45:286)

Who said anything about safe?

In his book The Will to Live On, Herman Wouk tells of a meeting he had with modern Israel's first president, David Ben-Gurion, and how Ben-Gurion urged him to move to the newly planted nation of Israel.

The president:  "You must return here to live," he said. "This is the only place for Jews like you. Here you will be free."

"Free?" I ventured to reply. "Free? With enemy armies ringing you, with their leaders publicly threatening to wipe out 'the Zionist entity,' with your roads impassable after sundown—free?"

"I did not say safe," the old man retorted, "I said free."     Citation: Gordon MacDonald, speaker and author; source: Herman Wouk, The Will to Live On, (Cliff Street Books, 2000)

Preaching that melts...

From George Whitefield's Journal:

Tuesday, November 27, 1739 - ...I preached from a balcony to above six thousand people. God strengthened me to speak nearly two hours, with such demonstration of the Spirit, that great numbers continued weeping for a considerable time.

Tuesday, April 30, 1740 - Towards the conclusion of my discourse, God's Spirit came upon the preacher and people, so that they were melted down exceedingly.

May 14, 1749 - I believe there were near twelve thousand. I had not spoken long before I perceived numbers melting. As I proceeded, the influence increased, till, at last, thousands cried out, so that they almost drowned my voice...What tears were shed and poured forth after the Lord Jesus...After the last discourse, I was so pierced, as it were, and overpowered with the sense of God's love, that some thought...I was about to give up the ghost. How sweetly did I lie at the feet of Jesus. With what power did a sense of His all-constraining, free, and everlasting love flow in upon my soul! It almost took away my life.

What kind of preaching melts hearts today?

Accountability questions to stay spiritually sharp...

In the middle of the twentieth century the Christian Business Men's Committee urged each other to confront themselves with these questions daily:

1. Does my life please God?
2. Do I enjoy being a Christian?
3. Do I cherish in my heart a feeling of dislike or hatred for anyone?
4. Am I studying my Bible daily?
5. How much time do I spend in secret prayer?
6. How long has it been since I led a soul to Christ?
7. How long since I had a direct answer to prayer?
8. Do I estimate the things of time and eternity at their true value?
9. Am I praying and working for anyone's salvation?
10. Is there anything I cannot give up for Christ?
11. How does my life look to those who are not Christians?
12. Where am I making my greatest mistake?
13. Do I place anything before my Christian duties?
14. Am I honest with the Lord's money?
15. Have I neglected any known duty?
16. Is the world better or worse for my living in it?
17. Am I doing anything that I would condemn in others?
18. Do I have a clear conception of my place in the Lord's work?
19. What am I doing to hasten the coming of Christ?
20. Am I doing as Christ would do in my place?

(David R. Enlow, Men Aflame: The Story of CBMC (Zondervan).

Why do we pastor?

‎"We are not sent to minister to a congregation and be content if we keep things going. We are sent to make war...and to stop short of nothing but the subjugation of the world to the sway of the Lord Jesus." (William Booth...From an address at the 'War Congress' of 1878)